Momentus XT, Momentus, Momentus Thin, MobileMax, and other notebook drives

[maca]

Hi I have a brand new dell studio xps 13 (1340)  and it comes with this hard disk, after some hours using it, i've noticed a 'click' noise that comes (i think) from the hard disk, that clicking noise, when it happens, its in sync with the hd led, so i think its the hard disk. When this clicking noise happen the system is stopped for half second.

I've called dell support, and they make me to run diagnostics tools, etc... and all diagnostics says that the hard disk its ok. but the problem persisted.

Dell sent me a hard disk replacement, but with the new disk (same model and specifications) happens the same, the clicking noise is still there...

Its there any firmware update or something that i could do? 

I have windows vista home premium 64bits

Thanks!!

[wickostate]

Same exact problem on a Dell D630 running Vista Business 32Bit.    At first i thought it was just some power management spin down, but it is happening sometimes during the middle of disk access.  Click <pause> wine, click </pause> and then all returns to normal.  Event logs look clean.  It seems to happen more often on battery (maybe exclusively). Seatools comes back clean.

[niceitdude]

I am using a Dell Latitude 830.

The drive I use is the 500GB version of the Momentus 7200.4

Smart reports no problems.

After hours of use, it starts making a CLICK sound followed by a WINE. I noted the frequency by which this happens today.

Notebook is turned on 0900

11:00 First Click>wine sound from HD
14:54 Click wine
14:58 Click wine
14:59 Click wine
14:59 Click wine
15:01 Click wine
15:02 Click wine
15:04 Click wine
15:05 Click wine
15:09 Click wine
15:15 Click wine
15:15 Click wine
15:15 Click wine
15:15 wine
15:16 Click wine
15:18 Click wine
15:19 Click wine
15:20 Click wine
15:21 Click wine

Restarting computer, power off/on, out of docking station, power on again after 10 seconds.

16:45 No sound so far.

This means, it must be something not mechanical right?

I have asked to RMA it, but I would rather not if I can avoid it.

Would be great if some wise seagate personal had some suggestions.

Best Wishes

Lars

- Nice IT dude from Denmark

[wickostate]

After experiencing the problem pretty much constantly on and off since the last post and doing some reading on the forums it makes sense that it might be the G-Force sensor detecting that there is some impending/in process fall.  Anyone know how i could verify this?  Is the sensor in the drive itself?

I am going to keep an eye on it and see if orentation makes any difference as some others on the forums stated.  I am close to RMA teritory as i guess it could be a hardware issue.  However, the first post in this thread doesn't give much hope to a simple swap of the drive fixing the issue.

[maca · Accepted solution]

Well i've received today anooother hard disk replacement from dell (my 2nd replacement), same model, same specifications.

6 hours running up to now, and no clicking sound, I hope  not to hear that clicking sound again....

i will let you know, if it happens again...

I think you should call for a replacement, and see what happens...

bye!

thanks 

[niceitdude]

I am going ahead with the RMA here also. 

However, yesterday, in preparation for the RMA I switched the drive to an outside USB enclosure. Put in this enclosure, I heard none of the annoying sounds.

I am going to test it again later today, but this makes me wonder, if this might be heat related. Afterall, the notebook gets quite warm, and it would also align itself with the fact that it usually takes 2-3 hours from first boot till the CLICK WINE sound. Right now, the replacement Fujitsu drive is 46C hot, measured with HD Tune. 

Also, I tried adjusting the BIOS setting with accustic management. Tried the Bypass, Quiet and Performance options. The performance option made the drive click ALL the time, but in a different way without the wine. Bypass was what I started out with. Quiet is a BIT better, but still there are CLICK WINE sounds, sometimes more than others.  

Anyways, I am thinking, that the drive reacts to the heat. This might be because it is produced slightly outside specifications maybe. According to the product sheet it should operate correctly even at 60 C.

[BrerBear]

Apple is putting these drives as options in their new MacBookPros, and many buyers are experiencing the same problem:

  http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?threadID=2049659&start=0&tstart=0 

[maca]

oh! I cant beleive that apple's macbook pros has the same problems!

I think that seagate has released a bunch of HD's with this issue, that explains why the replacement of my first disk has the same problem, and the second replacement works ok.

bye! 

[btheriau]

Sorry, It isn't a solution!

It is an other way to don't find a solution with this drive problem. 

I thinks, Seagate will realise a firmware to solve this issue. And I hope, very soon!!! 

I have a new MacBook Pro 15" (Mid 2009) with a Seagate 500GB/7200.4 drive (ST9500420ASG). 

[maca]

yes, you are right, it isn't a solution.... but was the only solution for my problem :/  (dell replaced my hd without charge...)

seagate must release a firmware (if there is a possibility that a firmware fix this issue)... or change the defective drives without cost and charge...

apple must change your hd if you have this issue, call them!

bye!  

[btheriau]

Hi Maca,

You're right, It is my B plan if Seagate do nothing soon... 

Thanks to share with us your good ending, 

[DGrau]

I'm another Apple user with the ST9500420ASG 7200RPM 500GB drive. While using my computer on a stationary desk, well insulated from errant shock, my system will emit a click and a chirp from the HDD bay, and the system will pause for .5-1 second at a time in between the click and chirp noises. The issue occurs at random times, but certainly in conjunction with read/write requests to the disk. Apple has yet to admit a problem with their hardware, nor anyone else's for that matter. Either the issue lies with Seagate and their drive, or an incompatibility of this particular model of drive with Apple's hardware. I am posting here in hopes that more complaints will yeild a response from one or both hardware vendors on the matter.

[btheriau]

See this Apple's forum too: A LOT of new MacBook Pro have the same problem! 

http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?messageID=9817201#9817201

[nittanys1]

I too am another Apple user with the ST9500420ASG 7200RPM 500GB drive. While using my computer on a stationary desk, well insulated from errant shock, my system will emit a click and a chirp from the HDD bay, and the system will pause for .5-1 second at a time in between the click and chirp noises. The issue occurs at random times, but certainly in conjunction with read/write requests to the disk. Apple has yet to admit a problem with their hardware, nor anyone else's for that matter. Either the issue lies with Seagate and their drive, or an incompatibility of this particular model of drive with Apple's hardware. I am posting here in hopes that more complaints will yield a response from one or both hardware vendors on the matter.

This is getting ridiculous! 

[AGPX]

HI,

I have mounted the ST9500420AS 7200 RPM 500GB drive in my notebook (Asus C90S). I have the clicking noise issue too. Actually the temperature of the hard drive is stable on 55°C, that seems to me a bit too hot. So, it's not a G-Force related issue because my hard drive doesn't have this technology. This clicking introduce a delay of about 1 - 1.5 seconds and is very annoying. Could be a temperature related issue? I haven't tried it on winter yet...

[tacosauce]

Adding my own experiences:

I have a ST9500420AS, worked perfectly for 30 days, now it's doing the same thing.  I checked the S.M.A.R.T. stats (using smartctl on my macbook pro) and got:

1 Raw_Read_Error_Rate 0x000f 114 099 006 Pre-fail Always - 67066748

3 Spin_Up_Time 0x0003 100 099 085 Pre-fail Always - 0

4 Start_Stop_Count 0x0032 100 100 020 Old_age Always - 90

5 Reallocated_Sector_Ct 0x0033 100 100 036 Pre-fail Always - 0

7 Seek_Error_Rate 0x000f 069 060 030 Pre-fail Always - 8318913 

since the tests, the error rates have skyrocketed into the high billions for raw-read-error-rate and into the millions for seek-error-rate.  

Seagate has aknowledged that this is a known issue for people with MacBook Pros.  

Goodnews!- Apple has released a firmware upgrade!

Bad news!- The upgrade can only be installed on drives issued by Apple that already have Apple firmware on them.  

Seagate has confirmed they will not release a firmware upgrade.  People like me, who bought the drive from Newegg, are stuck with a drive that will continue to malfunction until it actually dies, which is soon.  I am past my 30 day refund date from Newegg.  Seagate has offered to replace my drive but they also acknowledge that the same problem will happen again.  They will not refund me any money because I didn't get it from them

For all you PC people, I suggest getting a S.M.A.R.T. monitor that can read all the values from the drive and let tech support know that it's not just Apples that are dealing with this.

[Edited in compliance of the community rules and regulations.]

Message Edited by BradC on 08-25-2009 12:07 PM

[HughR]

tacosauce:

Your SMART stats are hard to read due to this forum's font and word spacing.  Consider using the "insert code" button.  That will make it hard to read in a different way.  Oh, and include the column titles for those that haven't memorized smartctl's report format.

It turns out that the raw values of attributes 1 and 7 are not simple integer counters on Seagate drives.  I think you have to throw away the bottom 32 bits to get a count of errors.  That means dividing by 4,294,967,296 and throwing away the remainder.

If you have error rates in the high billions, that sounds like 1 or 2 actual errors.  Why didn't you show us that SMART report?  The ones you did show us had no actual errors as far as I can tell.  In fact, none of the stats you presented looked bad but I think that you've left out some key ones.

Here's a bit of a clue, but incomplete:  http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/message.php?msg_id=49BE3893.7010101%40aei.mpg.de

As to your main point: that sounds unfortunate.  What does the Apple firmware update change?  Can you give us a reference?

On Linux, some notebook drives go to low power mode too frequently such that the drives wear out prematurely.  There is some drive setting that you can change to prevent this (but it needs to be set at each boot).  Perhaps that is similar to what you are concerned about. Here's one link:

https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/acpi-support/+bug/59695

Sorry that link isn't "live".  The stupid forum software's link inserter isn't working for me.  Grumble.

[HughR]

Some folks claim that this is a fix.  Looks like the Linux fix.  http://www.hardmac.com/news/2009/07/13/stop-the-beeps-with-the-7200-rpm-hard-disks-of-the-macbook-pr...

[tacosauce]

Hopefully this will help.  I had an online conversation with a tech at seagate where he/she gave me the info about the firmware and seagate's stance on it.  
 
As for all the Apple people, the main discussion thread is :http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?threadID=2049659&start=0&tstart=0
Here is where I got the info for the Apple firmware:  http://support.apple.com/downloads/Hard_Drive_Firmware_Update_2_0
If you try to apply the updated firmware without having the Apple firmware on the drive, it wont let you.  Currently I have firmware version: 0002SDM1
Apple is horrible about disclosing any details of their updates, so likewise, this update is very vague. I wish there was a way to force an update.  I tried extracting the firmware updater from the installer package, but not only does the installer package check the firmware before installing the updater, but the updater double checks the current firmware before continuing.
 
Here is my smart info with headers in a code block, sorry about that.  I was mistaken on the number of raw-read-error-rate, it's in the hundreds of millions and climbs steadily with each run the smartctl.  It's alarming because the number is climbing steadily on a 1 month old drive.  On my 10 month old drive that was working and replaced by the 500gb, there were no raw errors whatsoever, although the load cycle count seemed high at somewhere around 150k.

Vendor Specific SMART Attributes with Thresholds:
ID# ATTRIBUTE_NAME          FLAG     VALUE WORST THRESH TYPE      UPDATED  WHEN_FAILED RAW_VALUE
  1 Raw_Read_Error_Rate     0x000f   111   099   006    Pre-fail  Always       -       36984705
  3 Spin_Up_Time            0x0003   100   099   085    Pre-fail  Always       -       0
  4 Start_Stop_Count        0x0032   100   100   020    Old_age   Always       -       94
  5 Reallocated_Sector_Ct   0x0033   100   100   036    Pre-fail  Always       -       0
  7 Seek_Error_Rate         0x000f   069   060   030    Pre-fail  Always       -       9377755
  9 Power_On_Hours          0x0032   100   100   000    Old_age   Always       -       356
 10 Spin_Retry_Count        0x0013   100   100   097    Pre-fail  Always       -       0
 12 Power_Cycle_Count       0x0032   100   037   020    Old_age   Always       -       82
184 Unknown_Attribute       0x0032   100   100   099    Old_age   Always       -       0
187 Reported_Uncorrect      0x0032   100   100   000    Old_age   Always       -       0
188 Unknown_Attribute       0x0032   100   099   000    Old_age   Always       -       4
189 High_Fly_Writes         0x003a   100   100   000    Old_age   Always       -       0
190 Airflow_Temperature_Cel 0x0022   058   056   045    Old_age   Always       -       42 (Lifetime Min/Max 30/42)
191 G-Sense_Error_Rate      0x0032   100   100   000    Old_age   Always       -       0
192 Power-Off_Retract_Count 0x0032   100   100   000    Old_age   Always       -       0
193 Load_Cycle_Count        0x0032   095   095   000    Old_age   Always       -       11336
194 Temperature_Celsius     0x0022   042   044   000    Old_age   Always       -       42 (0 20 0 0)
195 Hardware_ECC_Recovered  0x001a   047   040   000    Old_age   Always       -       36984705
197 Current_Pending_Sector  0x0012   100   100   000    Old_age   Always       -       0
198 Offline_Uncorrectable   0x0010   100   100   000    Old_age   Offline      -       0
199 UDMA_CRC_Error_Count    0x003e   200   200   000    Old_age   Always       -       0
240 Head_Flying_Hours       0x0000   100   253   000    Old_age   Offline      -       8203387535671
241 Unknown_Attribute       0x0000   100   253   000    Old_age   Offline      -       1507067261
242 Unknown_Attribute       0x0000   100   253   000    Old_age   Offline      -       749646730
254 Unknown_Attribute       0x0032   100   100   000    Old_age   Always       -       0

 

[HughR]

tacosauce

It is annoying that "code" does not use a fixed-pitch font.  If it did, these tables would line up properly.  Still, this presentation is better than the previous one.  (I also copied it to an xterm window with a fixed pitch font; that helped more.)

 Your disk has been on 356 hours (attribute 9).  You've turned your system on 80 times (attribute 12).  There were 11336 load cycles (attribute 193).

Since the average length of you session is  4.45 hours, I bet that you are not actually using it for a fair amount of time in which it is on.

On average, your disk load-cycles every two minutes.  But this is actually probably more frequent while you are actually using the machine.  That seems like a lot.  So it seems that you are experiencing the problem I mentioned.  Consider trying the fix described in the link I posted in the second message.

I don't see any other stats that concerns me.  I don't know what attributes 241 and 242 are.  254 is Number of "Free Fall Events" detected according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S.M.A.R.T.

Message Edited by HughR on 2009-08-25 10:33 PM

[tacosauce]

Yeah, I usually use the computer for a about 8 hours a day. I'm a programmer and use this machine at work since our IT dept only provides Dell, so when it's in use it's pretty active running a virtual pc with server 2003, sharepoint, sqlserver, and visual studio 2008.  You can imagine how annoying hard drive problems can be in I/O sensitive situations like this.   At night, I usually set it up to crunch numbers while I sleep so it sees a lot of on time.  This past month I was on vacation for 3 weeks so I didn't use it as much or keep it on.  The only problem I have with the suggested fix is that if I want to use the battery, the hard drive with suck down the power.  I pinged newegg again and hopefully they will have a heart and offer a refund.  If not, I'll have to get a replacement drive from seagate and I'll try the suggested workaround.

[HughR]

tacosauce:

Why would you wish to RMA the disk (and just get back another of the same model)?  I don't see anything actually wrong with this particular disk.  Sure, you might have a better experience with a different model.

There are a bunch of possible values for the APM setting.  Maybe some of them behave optimally for your purposes.

[fzabkar]

I realise that this thread has gone stale, but I thought I'd make some observations anyway.

The Load Cycle Count is 11336, but your Start/Stop Count is only 94. The cooked value of the former has already dropped from 100 to 95, after only 356 powered-on hours. At this rate you will hit 0 in about 7000 hours (= 19 x 356).

Attribute 188 is indicating 4 Command Timeouts.

Attributes 240, 241, and 242 appear to be multi-byte values that are probably best observed in hexadecimal.

240 -> 8203387535671 -> 0x077600000137

241 -> 1507067261 -> 0x000059d4057d

242 -> 749646730 -> 0x00002caeb38a

Attribute 240 (Head Flying Hours) appears to consist of two values, 0x0776 and 0x0137 (or 0x00000137).

Now 0x0137 = 311 decimal, and Power_On_Hours = 356. I'm guessing that this means that the heads were over the platters for 311 hours out of the 356 hours that the drive was powered up, and were parked for the remaining 45 hours.

Attribute 190 (Airflow Temperature) seems to be directly related to attribute 194 (Temperature_Celsius):

42 + 58 = 100

44 + 56 = 100

The raw Seek Error Rate figure reflects 0 errors in 9377755 seeks, ie a perfect score.

Here is an example showing 1 error in 4 million seeks:

http://forums.seagate.com/stx/board/message?board.id=ata_drives&message.id=8732#M8732 

The cooked value of Raw_Read_Error_rate is 111 which is also very good. The raw value of 36984705 is not an error rate -- it is a sector count. My understanding is that Seagate computes the error rate by counting the number of read errors in each block of 250 million sectors. The sector count then rolls over to 0 and continues counting up to 250 million. The cooked value is incremented or decremented according to the number of errors detected in each block.

[tacosauce]

Sorry for a delayed response, I wanted to RMA the disk so that I could get a new one, which i could either hold on to until apple lets me put their firmware on the drive, or to sell on craigslist and recoup some of my cost of buying an "incompatible" hard drive.  I explained my situation to newegg and they decided to take the drive back and credit my account.  I'm very luck, but now running on a 320gb 5400rpm drive.  I'll most likely wait till I can read more feedback about all the 500gb drives available.  Thanks for all the help everybody has offered.   

[sitecr2]

macbook pro 2.53 - 1 partition w/ OS 10.6 (even w/ it brand new format and min apps it still freezes/beachball) and 1 partition w/ vista up to date. vista side not as many freezes but on mac side many (then again i use mac mainly) 

have tried turning off stuff, fan under the laptop, deleting caches. nothing works and the apple firmware won't work on this hard drive.

need some help badly.

ddt 

[tacosauce]

You're sol, seagate has reported that these drives are incompatible with a macbook pro without the apple firmware.  You can read the thread about it and my experiences.  You will need to RMA it to wherever you bought it, or to seagate for a new drive which you can sell to a buddy to help recoup the cost of buying an "incompatible" product.  

[HughR]

---

sitecr2 wrote:

macbook pro 2.53 - 1 partition w/ OS 10.6 (even w/ it brand new format and min apps it still freezes/beachball) and 1 partition w/ vista up to date. vista side not as many freezes but on mac side many (then again i use mac mainly) 

have tried turning off stuff, fan under the laptop, deleting caches. nothing works and the apple firmware won't work on this hard drive.

need some help badly.

ddt 

---

If you have the clicking problem described in the first post, I recommend you read the rest of the thread.  You will find where I point to a possible fix.  Try that and report back.

If you don't have that problem, start a new thread: this one isn't for you.

[nevdull]

I have a 3.0 Ghz Macbook Pro.  While I did do the firmware update on my machine, the drive cycling and parking noises did in fact stop so that worked fine.  However, now, I'm getting the dreaded beachball freeze.  That wasn't happening before and looking at my activity monitor on the machine and checking a few cycles, it is the drive that is stopping.  

I'm think now that the new Hitachi 7200 2.5 500 GB drives will be out shortly and I'll move over to one of those and put this into a firewire case for backup only.   It's not a great solution but there isn't much more I can do.  I installed a 320 GB 7200 Hitachi Travelstar drive in my wife's Macbook Pro from last year and it continues to work perfectly without issue.  It's too bad, I've always had good success with the Seagate products but this one is obviously a dud for them.  

[HughR]

---

nevdull wrote:

I have a 3.0 Ghz Macbook Pro.  While I did do the firmware update on my machine, the drive cycling and parking noises did in fact stop so that worked fine.  However, now, I'm getting the dreaded beachball freeze.  That wasn't happening before and looking at my activity monitor on the machine and checking a few cycles, it is the drive that is stopping.  

 ...

---

I'm a little confused.  What firmware update did you do?  As I understand it (and I may be mistaken) the only firmeware upgrade for this problem is from Apple for drives they provided.  Is your drive from Apple?  Or are you talking about another firmware update?  Or am I wrong?

Not being a Mac user, I don't know what a beachball is.  Could you explain?

[nevdull]

Apologies.....this isn't in the right forum.  

[blairwillis]

---

tacosauce wrote:
You're sol, seagate has reported that these drives are incompatible with a macbook pro without the apple firmware.

---

@tacosauce:  Where was this?  Can you provide a link or documentation where Seagate has reported this?

FYI: I just posted the following to another related thread on this forum and copying here for those that haven't seen:

http://forums.seagate.com/stx/board/message?board.id=ata_drives&message.id=15137&jump=true

Just installed the 2.5" 500GB 7200rpm Seagate Momentus in a 15" MacBook Pro (pre-unibody) and have noticeable clicks, often accompanied by brief freezes / lag / hiccups.
 
I was very hesitant to purchase a Seagate drive, because the only hard drive failure I ever had was a Seagate, but it was many years ago and I felt that they're still around so they must be doing something right.  Plus, there isn't much choice in the 2.5" 500GB 7200rpm specs, so Seagate it was.
 
This issue is affecting many systems, both PC and Mac, OEM and upgraded drives.  I found extensive discussion on the apple forums here:
 
http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?threadID=2049659&start=0&tstart=0
 
At the time of this post, that topic is currently at 128 pages and nearly 2000 posts.  Let me sum it up for you:  No fix yet.  This drive is OEM in MacBook Pros.  There is an Apple hard drive firmware upgrade which minimized the clicks for some people, but seems to cause even further system hangs or freezes.  The Apple firmware upgrade can only be applied to Apple OEM drives (that already have Apple firmware on them) rather than an upgraded drive (like the one I just installed).  I'm hesitant to disable APM, and frankly, I shouldn't have to.  Seagate?

This really is up to Seagate at this point to fix this drive.  I'm going to tough it out for a few days, but based on what I'm seeing so far (and the fact that this discussion has been "officially" ignored by Seagate), they're about to loose a customer that they had previously lost for the past decade.  And I *won't* be back in another decade, either.  I'll also be returning this drive to the retailer (Best Buy) with an earful about why they need to send back all these drives and the fact that it's being ignored by Seagate despite a very large user pool experiencing this problem across all platforms. 
 
I was so looking forward to a hefty, speedy drive in my MacBook Pro, but random system pauses and hiccups are absolutely intolerable for someone using this drive professionally.  Let's hope Seagate starts acting professionally and publicly acknowledges the problem and issues a firmware fix.

[HughR]

I don't have one of these drives.  But I'd like to understand the issues.  The discussion seems to me to be rather overheated and confused.  Please correct me if I'm wrong.

From reading some of these many posts, it seems to me:

"out of the box" these drive make clicking noises and cause machine delays in ways that people find disturbing and inconvenient.

These clicks and pauses are caused by the drive powering up (after deciding on its own to power down).

Why was the drive powered down?  APM (power management) firmware in the drive decided that the disk had been idle long enough that it was a good idea to power down.  This decision is based on so many seconds of disk inactivity.

The one cure that seems to work is to turn off APM.  There are known tools to do this (QuietHDD on MS WIndows and hdparm on OS/X and Linux).

So what is the problem?  If you don't like the APM behaviour, turn it off!

If I had the drive, I'd probably consider tuning APM rather than turning it off.  Unfortunately, I haven't seen any documentation for the meaning of each value of the APM setting (except 128 is default and 255 is off).  So a little experimentation is in order.

My guess is that the default setting is just too anxious to power down the drive.  Perhaps its time delay is just badly co-ordinated with the frequency that sync(1) runs on OS/x. 

 Seagate does not appear to have addressed the issue with a clear message and set of instructions.  Unfortunate.  Worse, Seagate support seems uninformed.  (From my unscientific sampling, this seems all too predictable.)

Please: correct me if I have the wrong impression.  I'm not trying to pick a side, I'm trying to clarify the issues.

[blairwillis]

---

HughR wrote:

I don't have one of these drives.  But I'd like to understand the issues.  The discussion seems to me to be rather overheated and confused.  Please correct me if I'm wrong.

---

Actually, I appreciate your interest in helping sort out the issues, HughR.  I'll attempt to answer your questions at least from my point of view.

>> "out of the box" these drive make clicking noises and cause machine delays in ways that people find disturbing and inconvenient.

Yes.  Such a thing could be dismissed as "subjective" so let me clarify.  I've personally owned dozens of computers, both PC and Mac, desktop and laptop, PATA, SATA, 2 TB -> 200 GB, internal, external, and everything back to cassette tapes and true "floppy" discs.  The audible emissions of these drives when installed in a proper and reasonable manner is unacceptable (but it's not quite as bad as the regular operating noise of the old growling 5.25" floppy drives!).  In between "clicks" the operating noise of the drive is appropriate and could be described as "quiet."  It's the clicking that is loud enough to be annoying in that it does take your attention.  The pause that accompanies the clicking is also noticeable and significantly enough to interrupt the computer's operation. In a professional situation, such as recording audio, this is unacceptable.  In a recreational situation, it's just annoying, and to the point that I consider it a defect in operation by reasonable standards.  (A similar product would not cause the same annoyance.)

Additionally, the frequency of this event is ridiculous.  This doesn't happen just "once in a while" but at times constantly.

>>These clicks and pauses are caused by the drive powering up (after deciding on its own to power down).

This appears to be true. 

>> Why was the drive powered down?  APM (power management) firmware in the drive decided that the disk had been idle long enough that it was a good idea to power down.  This decision is based on so many seconds of disk inactivity.

It seems the APM is not functioning properly.  The cycling does not consistently accompany periods of inactivity (or activity).  It frequently occurs during very active disk use.  The seeming "randomness" of the events is a big factor in the frustrations many users are reporting. 

>> The one cure that seems to work is to turn off APM.  There are known tools to do this (QuietHDD on MS WIndows and hdparm on OS/X and Linux).

>> So what is the problem?  If you don't like the APM behaviour, turn it off!

Today I decided to try this (using hdparm on OS X 10.6).  Since turning off APM, the clicking has gone away, as far as I can tell during several hours of active use.  

However, I don't have a good understanding of how hdparm and APM actually work.  I am concerned about the side effects this may have on my machine.  If you or someone with a better understanding of APM can educate me and others, I'd appreciate it.  Specifically, am I risking drive longevity?  Excessive temperature due to a constantly operative mechanism?  A noticeable effect on battery life? (Yes, I'm sure I could run some real-life tests on this one... I've just been plugged in all day)

>> If I had the drive, I'd probably consider tuning APM rather than turning it off.  Unfortunately, I haven't seen any documentation for the meaning of each value of the APM setting (except 128 is default and 255 is off).  So a little experimentation is in order.

I think I'd be more comfortable with this if I had a better understanding of APM.  Is it simply an activity/inactivity detector that starts and stops the drive?  I'd seen discussion that the problem may be related more to a shock or motion sensor that was meant to park the drive in to prevent motion damage.  Also, does APM change an operating system function, or is it changing an internal function on the drive itself?

 I'd really like to let my OS handle the things it's supposed to handle so I can focus more on using the machine productively.  There is a setting in Mac OS X "Energy Saver" preference panel that says "Put the hard disk(s) to sleep when possible" and I wonder if changing the APM setting has any disabling effect on this?

>> My guess is that the default setting is just too anxious to power down the drive.  Perhaps its time delay is just badly co-ordinated with the frequency that sync(1) runs on OS/x.

I don't think this is an OS specific issue, but I could be wrong.  It happens to have received a large amount of attention on the apple forums because of Apple offering the drive as a build-to-order option.

>> Seagate does not appear to have addressed the issue with a clear message and set of instructions.  Unfortunate.  Worse, Seagate support seems uninformed.  (From my unscientific sampling, this seems all too predictable.)

Agreed.  From a product performance and customer service standpoint, I think a "solution" that requires a customer to install some unix tool and tinker with an APM setting is far from ideal.  First off, communication is important.  They need to recognize that a large set of customers are experiencing a real symptom and not brush it off as a bad unit or as a normal behavior.

I took the time to research other users' experiences before beginning to post on my own.  I'd realized that this issue was widespread, and not an isolated incident.  They need to do the same.

I provided enough related info to hopefully assist others in finding the related topics (here in the Seagate forum and on the Apple forum) along with the other keywords that might help elevate this in search results.  Even a "me too" will help bring attention to the issue and perhaps motivate a solution.

Finally, I am concerned that Apple (and Dell?) have released a firmware update for their factory installed (OEM) versions of this drive (same models) that may have "fixed" this issue.  But I'm using one purchased from a retailer and installed in my MacBook Pro, and the Apple updater does not recognize the after-market installed drive as updatable.  C'mon, if this firmware update will fix the drive, can't we get it done already?  If Seagate support seems to be categorically ignoring the problem, I don't have much faith that someone is behind the scenes working on a solution.  Perception =? Reality

 

[tacosauce]

@blairwillis:  I had a conversation with a seagate tech where I was told that these drives in an OEM state are incompatible and that apple has firmware which works. So, since I don't work for seagate I wont be able to provide you with a link or what not.  I hope you get it sorted.  I no longer have the drive, instead I own a 500gb hitachi so this is likely my last post.

[fzabkar]

If the drive clicks when it is active, then AFAIK this indicates a fault in the preamp, or a weak read head, or a bad patch on the platters. A SMART diagnostic may help identify whether bad sectors are a problem. It may also show whether the drive is experiencing an excessive number of load/unload cycles.

Advanced Power Management (APM) is defined in the ATA-8 command specification.

ATA/ATAPI Command Set - 2 (ACS-2):

http://www.t13.org/Documents/UploadedDocuments/docs2009/d2015r1a-ATAATAPI_Command_Set_-_2_ACS-2.pdf

Section 7.52.6, "Enable/disable the APM feature set", has a table of APM levels.

Count ..... Level
----------------------------------------------------
00h ....... Reserved
01h ....... Minimum power consumption with Standby
02h-7Fh ... Intermediate power management levels with Standby
80h ....... Minimum power consumption without Standby
81h-FDh ... Intermediate power management levels without Standby
FEh ....... Maximum performance
FFh ....... Reserved

"Device performance may increase with increasing APM levels. Device power consumption may increase with increasing power management levels. The APM levels may contain discrete bands (e.g., a device may implement one APM method from 80h to A0h and a higher performance, higher power consumption method from level A1h to FEh). APM levels 80h and higher do not permit the device to spin down to save power."

"[Set Features] subcommand code 85h disables APM. Subcommand 85h may not be implemented on all devices that implement SET FEATURES subcommand 05h."

AFAICS, maximum performance is set using a count of 254 (FEh), while 128 (80h) is the setting for minimum power consumption without spinning down the drive.

Strangely, I couldn't find anything on APM in the Momentus 7200.4 SATA Product Manual:

http://www.seagate.com/staticfiles/support/disc/manuals/notebook/momentus/7200.4%20(Holliday)/100534376a.pdf

Page 199 of the following HitachiGST document describes how APM is implemented in the Deskstar 7K1000 model:

http://www.hitachigst.com/tech/techlib.nsf/techdocs/F8156F65CFE91CCF862573160072C729/$file/7k1000_sp.pdf

[Lutin M]

Hi, I got a Sony vaio AR41S, with raid.

I've decided to change my harddisk (2x160Go SATA - Raid0=320Go)

with 2 Momentus 7200.4 500Go with G-force, (and RAID1=500Go in Mirror)

First, the second harddrive failed after 24 hours.. I heared tic-tic of death, indicating that head are out.

After contacting my reseller, I've bought a third one, because the replacement delay were more than a week,

I've receive the new one after 48h, change the disk, (return the crashed one) create raid, rebuild mirror.. and after some reboot, the mirror is broken.

after some other RAID is ok and mirror is rebuild...

after 10 days, the raid controller said disk in error, and the disk stop working while 10 days... then it worked again...

while this time, I've received the other one (exchange after 12 days)

I've re-changed disk, rebuild mirror... but same effects with this disk.

conclusion: the momentus 7200.4 isn't compatible with RAID, and with critical application! (found on seagate website)

I've mail the problem to seagate: the answer is "this disk is not for RAID!"  (sic! raid is a sort of controller! I've never heard about disk for raid or not for raid!)

some times my Vaio make bips like MacBookPro (I canno't apply Apple firmware update...)

I've found users that have same troubles with Lenovo notebook, Dell, Sony... and only Apple made an update?

Seagate dosen't recognize the problem, and no firmware seems to be edited...

Last question: is data storage a non crtitical application? it looks like  for Seagate..."- Your disk, you'll brick-it? or it's for storage?"

Last conclusion: Seagate Momentus 7200.4 500Go is not made for data storage.

[HughR]

blairwillis: Thanks for your long and comprehensive answer.

My theory is that the click-and-delay is not a disease, it is a natural consequence of the drive powering back up.

Assuming that that is correct, and that most people don't want that, then it seems to me that they should turn it off (setting 255).

Here are some reasons that one might not want this behaviour:

• it causes delays at inconvenient times
• the noise is disturbing
• it is happening way too frequently (the drive can only handle this 20,000 (number from my memory and might be wrong) times in its lifetime)
• it causes RAID configurations to think that the drive is broken and take drastic and unfortunate remedial action
• perhaps the OS has a better idea than the disk drive about when it would be a reasonable time to power down the drive: let the OS decide.

Here are some reasons that one might want this behaviour

• if the drive happens to be powered down long enough, power is saved, heat is reduced, wear on the drive is reduced.  I don't know what "long enough" is, but I'd guess 10 minutes minimum.

• if you happen to drop the machine while the drive is powered down, it is more likely to survive.  Perhaps this advantage does not apply for the "G" model which has anti-drop features.

In some ways, the disconcerting noise is actually useful as a warning.  With other drives on a notebook, I've exprienced way too many power cycles with no noise (a silent killer!). See, for example, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DanielHahler/Bug59695 [The stupid forum button to add a link isn't working].

 "It seems the APM is not functioning properly.
 The cycling does not consistently accompany periods of inactivity (or
activity).  It frequently occurs during very active disk use.  The
seeming "randomness" of the events is a big factor in the frustrations
many users are reporting. "

That I don't know about (because I don't have a system to test).  If true, that is a problem and a bug.  How did you reach this conclusion?  Disk activity that hits the cache may not count.  The sound happens only when activity starts again; inconveniently, there isn't a sound when the drive is being spun down (or is there?).

How frequently does OSX flush buffers to the disks (sync)?

[HughR]

fzabkar: thanks for posting useful specifications.

I also found that SMART attribute  193 Load_Cycle_Count useful (for different notebook drives).  It showed that I was having a similar problem: too many load/unloads.

I don't think that the click is a symptom of a fault.  I think that that is the way this disk works.

Calling it the click of death (as Lutin M did) is unwarranted.  I don't think that this is anything like the horrible Zip drive problems that caused this term to be coined.

[HughR]

Lutin M:

APM isn't compatible with RAID, at least not RAID with short timeouts.  Turn it off.

Now Seagate has this nasty habit of claiming (roughly) drives not certified for RAID won't be supported in RAID applications.  They have never explained why in technical terms: nothing in the specifications gives a technical reason.  I've argued elsewhere that this is unreasonable and unacceptible.

[Voicedesign]

+1 case

Lenovo X200T

Place is Russia

After one or couple "beep" MS Vista is  fully freeze.

Message Edited by Voicedesign on 10-04-2009 09:40 AM

[Ancan]

Could it be temperature related? I bought one for my Clevo M860TU a couple of days ago, and it's silent from the start but when it's been on for a couple of hours it starts to click and chirp.

[crash86]

Has no solution been found yet?  Is Seagate working on a new firmware?  Will it be released before Christmas?  Can someone from Seagate please comment on the situation?

After the trouble I had with my 7200.11 I think this will be my last Seagate for a very long time indeed.

[blairwillis]

An update:

My drive failed.  I've replaced it with a Western Digital 320GB 500rpm.  No clicks, no stalls, just a well performing drive.

Fortunately I was able to restore a Time Machine backup to the new drive and not loose data.

I've also noticed the local Best Buy where I purchased the drive has stopped stocking them... whether it is a matter of availability or perhaps they've gotten too much negative feedback, I don't know.

This is without a doubt my final Seagate purchase.  The lack of any official response or acknowledgment of a problem is truly a disappointment.  I have several people that contact me for advice on computers and hardware purchases, and I will be sure to advise them against anything produced by Seagate.

Anyone using this drive should be sure to keep a full and current back of your data.  This is of course excellent practice regardless... but you should not trust your data integrity on this drive.

If you've just purchased this drive and found the same clicking/stalling problem, RETURN IT NOW. 

[wickostate]

I have tried three of these drives in my E4300 since my original post.  Two with the G-Force and one without.  All Three experienced the problem to some degree.  I guess basically at this point I would recommend people steer clear of the drive.  Shame, as on paper it really is a pretty nice drive.

[crash86]

I think you're probably right.  There's a Hitachi that matches this disk for size and performance.

Seagate are just making a fool out of me.  I'll be contacting the vendor for a refund.  I just don't think I can live with this disk-stalling for much longer.

[mkmk73]

Hello everyone,

Forgive my bad English, but I wanted to inform you that:

I have a seagate hd model ST9500420ASG (not OEM) installed on a Mac Book Pro 15 inch, and I have the classic problem: clicking noise and suspension of operation for a few seconds before sending the HD Service Center, I recently wrote to Seagate in "My Case" three times to get news on this, but I have not solved anything.

My question was this: 

Please, let me know how you will treat my case. 

I have a hd seagate 500gb momentus 7200rmp model ST9500420ASG that is not compatible with the Mac Book Pro. 

Showed no failures in tests, but does not work properly if used 
computer mac (click noise and to suspend work for a few seconds at random). 

This happens with both the model ST9500420ASG the ST9500420AS (without G-Force) 

The problem is well discussed in the forum Seagate: 

http://forums.seagate.com/stx/board/message?board.id=ata_drives&thread.id=13411&view=by_date_ascending&page=1 

I'm going to send it to you, but first I want to know from you what will be decided, because the replacement with an equal, not solve anything. 

I already wrote this to the warranty sector, but did not answer clearly. 

I await your reply before sending. 

Thank you.

Here are their responses:

1) 

Thank You for your recent e-mail to Seagate technical Support. 

I am sorry to hear that you were having problems with your hard drive the momentus drives are compatible with all notebooks or laptops. 

Your drive will be replaced according to the terms and conditions of the limited warranty that seagate provides. 

You were provided a copy with your drive if you have misplaced it you can find a copy of that on our website seagate under warranty and returns section . 

Thank You 

---

2)

Thank you for choosing Seagate. 

I am going to forward your e-mail to one of our support representatives in your region who will process your request. They should respond to you shortly on this. I appreciate your patience. 

Best Regards.

.....a few days... 

Hello, 

Actually, the clicking sound is caused by an issue on Apple's end. The clicking sound did not just affect Seagate Momentus drives, but also Western Digital and Hitachi drives who all have the G-force protection. Essentially, it was fooling all the drives into thinking that it was in free-fall mode which immediately parks the heads. This is the common function of all these drives with g-force protection, not just the Seagate drives. 

There was a firmware update from Apple that corrected this issue. Try updating the firmware Apple provides you and if the clicking persists, it may be a mechanical issue with the drive. 

If you have any further questions, please let us know.  

---

3) 

My question:

I tried to do the upgrade but Apple only works with units identical to mine, but only if an OEM product (Seagate). In my specific case that update Apple indicates that my computer does not need this update. 

While I am waiting for your solution, I tried with another HD with G-Force brand name "Toshiba" and I'm not having any problem, so it is easy to deduce that is not dependent on computers. 

The problem is only present on all hd seagate 7200rpm in question. 

Remember that customers who have this same problem are so many, as highlighted in the forum. 

Tests by the tool are regular, this is a difficult mechanical problem. However, if your advice is this, I send you the HD, hoping not to receive the same model. 

Do you have a firmware, as Apple has done for its OEM seagate hd? 

Reply of Seagate :

Hello, 

No, we do not have a firmware update for those drives as there was nothing wrong with the firmware nor the drive. The error was on Apple's end. 

Yes, the drive will be replaced with the exact same model and capacity. 

If you have any further questions, please let us know.  

---

They have completely ignored the problem and the existence of this forum !!! 

Someone solved ?

Have also written to you ?

Someone sent with RMA?

Thanks for any replies. 

Message Edited by mkmk73 on 12-14-2009 09:16 AM

[smmx]

Dell released a firmware for ST9500420ASG on 12/2.

The clicking sound has gone so far for me.

[crash86]

That's pretty cool but I tried to install that on my non-dell notebook and because I'd bought the disc retail the fix wouldn't install.  The Dell fimware is only for OEM drives.

My firmware is still set at 02... rather than 05..., which is the latest one.  But why should be get firmware updates via some OEM such as Dell rather than the hard disk manufacturer when I bought a Seagate branded product in a Seagate box?

Having said that after I *attempted* to update the firmware I haven't noticed any stuttering but I haven't been playing any games since then, which was when it was most noticeable.  

[fzabkar]

You can forcibly flash the firmware.

See this related thread for instructions:

http://forums.seagate.com/stx/board/message?board.id=ata_drives&thread.id=16853&view=by_date_ascending&page=1

Also see the following configuration file for the allowed combinations of models and firmware versions:

http://www.users.on.net/~fzabkar/dell_fw_cfg.txt

In your case this appears to be the appropriate line:

ST9500420ASG HO077A,SDM1,CA09BF,0002SDM1,FDFB 0005SDM1,lod HO077A,SDM1,CAE101,0005SDM1,6848

The format appears to be ...

(model number) (HD parameters before upgrade) (upgrade file) (HD parameters after upgrade)

[mkmk73]

---

fzabkar wrote:
You can forcibly flash the firmware.

See this related thread for instructions:

http://forums.seagate.com/stx/board/message?board.id=ata_drives&thread.id=16853&view=by_date_ascending&page=1

Also see the following configuration file for the allowed combinations of models and firmware versions:

http://www.users.on.net/~fzabkar/dell_fw_cfg.txt

In your case this appears to be the appropriate line:

ST9500420ASG HO077A,SDM1,CA09BF,0002SDM1,FDFB 0005SDM1,lod HO077A,SDM1,CAE101,0005SDM1,6848

The format appears to be ...

(model number) (HD parameters before upgrade) (upgrade file) (HD parameters after upgrade)

---

I put this line

ST9500420ASG HO077A, SDM1, CA09BF, 0002SDM1, FDFB 0005SDM1, lod HO077A, SDM1, CAE101, 0005SDM1, 6848

editing the file UPGRADE.CFS and run the file FLASH.BAT?

or, is it better to use the command

FDLH-m-f 0005SDM1.LOD HOLLIDAY ST9500420ASG-i-b-v

after boot ?